Talk: Zira

This is the talk page for the Zira article. This space is used to discuss improvements to the article, not the topic in question. Please remain civil and sign all comments with four tildes (~~~~). Click here to start a new topic.

Annoying

Okay this is just annoying now. Will you all just come to a consensus on what the page should say and unlock the thing? I want this picture added:

This is what I propose we say: "What Scar and Zira's exact relationship with each other is was unclear in the film, and when asked Darell Rooney gave us a clarification, shown in the two pictures on either side." Then we add the pictures. Nothing in this small paragraph is worth fighting over.

Look. Why don't we JUST say she was most definately a follower, but if there was more to their relationship than that was purposely made unclear?Werebereus 23:06, January 24, 2012 (UTC)

The way it is right now matches Rooney's statement the best. Her relationship with Scar was obscured to make her "just a follower," due to the incestuous undertones Kovu's romance with Kiara would have had. --Honeyfur ^{Hakuna Matata} 00:13, January 25, 2012 (UTC)

• sigh* WHY are you ignoring the update? The second time around, he is asked the same question and this time says NOTHING about her being a follower. You should be presenting the new information, not the old one.Werebereus 00:44, January 25, 2012 (UTC)

You always respond do you? No you dont, and heres the proof above me.Werebereus 00:47, February 5, 2012 (UTC)

Because my first response was all I needed to say. --Honeyfur ^{Hakuna Matata} 00:52, February 5, 2012 (UTC)

No. Why are you ignoring the update? The update means we can disregaurd that last message.Werebereus 03:06, February 5, 2012 (UTC)

Facepalm

TypicalWerebereus 23:47, February 18, 2012 (UTC)

Psychopathy versus Sociopathy

This article incorrectly refers to Zira as being a sociopath for threatening to kill her daughter. This would actually make her a psychopath, like Scar.

The primary difference between a sociopathy and psychopathy is that a sociopath (like TV's Dexter) generally will not kill family or those that they feel emotionally bonded towards. A psychopath, generally being void of any emotional quotient outside of manipulation, will kill anyone -- family, friend, or stranger.

In the perspective of Nature versus Nurture, the psychopath tends to be Nature (born that way). The sociopath tends to be Nurture, or formed by developmental and environmental reasons. Yes, Zira showed emotion during the movie, but it was more of a psychopathic manipulation tactic towards her rage on Simba. (She showed the emotion of caring towards Kovu so he can kill Simba. She normally paid no loving attention to her son Nuka until he dies at the "cause" of Simba).

The best example of sociopathy versus psychopathy is Vitani versus Zira. Vitani presents more as a sociopath, angry with a killing nature but still loyal to family. She only roars out at family (Kovu) when she felt more loyal to her mother than her brother. Zira on the other hand, like Scar, uses family to an end. She has no problem killing family when they no longer meet that end -- a much more psychopathic trait. Still, the most obvious example of psychopathy in the series remains Scar. Nothing screams psychopath like telling your adolescent nephew to "run away" and then with a straight face and no emotion telling someone else to "kill him".

Nightdown fox 14:21, May 23, 2012 (UTC)

Surviving. The theory, that lives for 14 years.

The theory is that Zira might have survived. There is NO evidence that she had actually died (yet there are no evidence to date that she is alive), and she might have survived both the fall and the flow.

A lot of humans had reportedly survived even much worse things (like being sucked into an F4 tornado, fall from about >30000 ft. and even being disconnected from the Internet). What do we have here? A fall from less than 100 ft, but a powerfull flow of water. While the fall was not a serious obstacle to survive, the flow definately was. IF not the fact, that it had begun to calm down less than a minute after Zira fell down.

Decide yourself. Everyone should decide himself. But let this message be heard. Ignoring the facts won't do any good.

I think she survived the fall, but it is quite likely that she drownd..... unless she clung onto a log and floted down the river......?122.149.65.113 04:51, July 2, 2012 (UTC)

Weird thing here

Okay, so in the movie, she blames Kovu for "killing his own brother" when he didn't, while she worships Scar who actually DID kill his own brother, what sense is there in that? Caseather (talk) 21:29, July 19, 2012 (UTC)

During Scar's rule NO ONE except the hyenas ever knew that Scar had killed Mufasa. And due the fact that hyenas have quite a low IQ, it can also be speculated that most of them didn't even realise that Scar had actually killed Mufasa. --Dale Sunderland (talk) 23:38, July 19, 2012 (UTC)

but Simba forced Scar to admit it during their final confrontation, causing the lionesses to attack with the hyena's retaliating, so it can be assumed that knowledge was out in the open after the fact174.26.128.12 02:41, July 20, 2012 (UTC)

Zira was not around during Simba's fight with Scar. This is not only the reason why she thought that Simba had killed Scar. Also, since Zira hadn't heard Scar's confession herself, she could not actually believe that Scar killed Mufasa, most likely thinking that everyone are slandering Scar.--Dale Sunderland (talk) 19:51, July 29, 2012 (UTC)

Parents

Okay, it is never mentioned who are Zira's parents. But who is believed to be her parents? Kiara M249 (talk) 22:13, April 25, 2013 (UTC)

I don't think there is anyone who is "believed" to be her parents. Then again, I don't read fan ficts or where ever people get information from. So I'm not quite sure.   ShayshayRip  23:03, April 25, 2013 (UTC)

True that. Thanks anyways Kiara M249 (talk) 00:03, April 26, 2013 (UTC)

There is a theory, THEORY, mind you, so there's nothing to back it up, that Scar is Zira's father. It's fairly recent, but it's gaining popularity slowly. Ggctuk (talk) 16:04, April 26, 2013 (UTC)

Scar?! They chose Scar?! I do not see that at all. I see Scar as more of a mate to Zira. Not her father. Creepy.  ShayshayRip  22:58, April 26, 2013 (UTC)

A website refers to her as Scar's sister, so there are A LOT of fan theories about their relationship. The only thing we know for sure is that they're not mates. --Honeyfur ^{Hakuna Matata} 20:12, April 27, 2013 (UTC)

At the end of the day, that is the only confirmed thing about Zira's relationship with Scar. That's where the theories come in. In either case, only the established fact has a place on this article. Ggctuk (talk) 20:17, April 27, 2013 (UTC)

That 'orphan' thing.

This is under her "Early life" section:

"It is unknown where Kovu was obtained, but apparently Zira is not his mother, according to Darell Rooney."

This is supposed to tally with the statement Rooney made, which states that "Kovu was described as an orphan". He hasn't elaborated on precisely what this means, and the rest of the article itself seems to agree with the in-movie explanation that Kovu is Zira's biological son. I think this statement should be removed, especially since it's both already mentioned in the Trivia section, and I thought we weren't really supposed to mention out-of-film elements in the background/story sections anyway. And again, we don't know what context the statement was meant to be read in. Usually such comments are made to writers to influence the way a character is written. Just thought I'd throw my two cents out there. But I shall go ahead and remove the statement on the basis of the fact it's mentioned in the trivia, shouldn't really be mentioned in the back tory section anyway, and is contradicted by other parts of the article. Ggctuk (talk) 21:49, May 10, 2013 (UTC)

It most certainly should not be in the article. I've been removing this theory from the article for months now, but this one must have slipped past my radar. Thanks for bringing it to my attention. --Honeyfur ^{Hakuna Matata} 01:46, May 11, 2013 (UTC)

Link Problem

The link which says it leads to a site where it claims "Zira is Scar's sister" appears to lead to a TLK 1 1/2 page that says nothing about Zira or Scar.Lionessia (talk) 02:49, January 7, 2016 (UTC)

Nice catch. I think the website has changed since we first posted that link. --Honeyfur 02:52, January 7, 2016 (UTC)

Scar and Zira

LOOK!!! Just because she is a so called follower doesn't mean she didn't have a relationship with Scar! ..... ----

Darrell Rooney has confirmed that their relationship was deliberately changed during production of the sequel. Canonically speaking, Zira is just a follower. --Honeyfur 15:12, September 5, 2016 (UTC)

Zira/Quotes

On Zira's "Quotes" section, she says "These lands belonged to Scar!" Are you sure it's not "These lands belong to Scar"? That's how I always heard it, IDK

Pinkpeony73 (talk) 15:59, November 1, 2016 (UTC)

It's a little hard to call. (This may not be a reliable scource); http://www.lionking.org/scripts/SP-Script.html (May need to copy and paste into search bar.) As the online script clearly saying "BelongED to Scar", however in the actual movie itself; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7yhlFYrX3yo, says clearly that it's saying "BELONG to Scar". So the two scources contradicts.  Mellowix (talk) 18:27, November 1, 2016 (UTC)

World's first mathematical/scientific proof that Zara survived!

After watching the death scene, I used math to calculate how far Zika fell. I timed the fall and found that she spent 4 seconds in descent. At an acceleration of 10 meters per second, because that is the acceleration due to gravity on Earth, she fell a total of 100 meters which equals about 300 feet. That's a very survivable fall, even with all of the debris in the river. This means that Zira actually did survive the fall. Where she is now is anyone's guess. Stupidhead1836 (talk) 22:34, February 5, 2017 (UTC)

She could have drowned.Lord O' Darkness (talk) 20:30, February 6, 2017 (UTC)

"100 meters - That's a very suriviable fall", you need to check you maths, my friend. First 300 feet is more equal to around 90 m. 330 feet is more around the 100 m mark.  Secend, you said '100 meters is a very survivable fall'. Do you know how tall 100 m is?! Let's put it into perspective, the Statue of Libery is 93 m. Do you think you can easily live though a fall like that?  Mellowix (talk) 15:43, February 12, 2017 (UTC)

Please take this conversation to a forum. It is not appropriate for a talk page. --Honeyfur 19:27, February 12, 2017 (UTC)

New pic

New image for Zira? It has her notch on the right ear so any thoughts? (Rebbystar (talk) 23:12, July 9, 2018 (UTC)) edit: her nose is cut, oh well just imagine her with a full nose. So new pic anyone?

The image was not sized correctly, so I shrunk it. I like this photo. You make a good point, as the picture we have now has her ear notch on the wrong side. --Honeyfur 00:44, July 10, 2018 (UTC)

Hmm, I don’t know. I personally like the one we have in now, but if others vote for this, then I’d be fine with it. We’d need a higher quality version though. 🌷Peony🌷 13:37, July 10, 2018 (UTC)

I second this change bcuz of the ear notch. For better quality this should be good, right? Also, her head is kinda cut off at the top of the pic here unlike the linked one where it's almost cut off at the top. What do you guys think of this or this? Although, I think the second one might of already been used before, and I think both are in the gallery as well. Madness is like gravity,all it takes is a little push. 07:49, July 11, 2018 (UTC)

Yes, the example image is a bit cropped. That would probably need to be fixed. As for your suggestions, Fangirl1111, I personally like the first one just fine, but the second one doesn't quite show enough of her, in my opinion. But that's just me. 🌷Peony🌷 13:21, July 11, 2018 (UTC)

Yes, plz :p And you can call me Ember, everyone does :P Agreed, she looks slightly crazier in the first one XD Lol, that's funny bcuz the second one is the only one with the majority of her body XD In all seriousness tho, it doesn't show enough as in Kiara's in the way and her head would be in the pic? Madness is like gravity, all it takes is a little push. 14:25, July 11, 2018 (UTC)

I think both photos are a bit meh for me because of the background. Like Fangirl said, Kiara is in the way for one, and in the other, it's only Zira's head. --Honeyfur 17:56, July 11, 2018 (UTC)

Agreed, so the first one then? Whoever crops it plz don't cut off her head tho :P Madness is like gravity, all it takes is a little push. 18:33, July 11, 2018 (UTC)

Look, I found this instead and she may not be smirking, but she is smiling and her head is fully shown, again, its fine if this wont do it either but, am a give it another shot. 

Rebbystar (talk) 16:22, July 15, 2018 ((UTC))

Edit: I found this one to

: (bottom one)

I personally prefer the picture we have. --Honeyfur 18:59, July 16, 2018 (UTC)

Alright Honey thats fine with me. -Rebbystar

Scar and Zira Co-parenting

Can I ask why my edit is being undone? Zira says in My Lullaby:

"Scar is gone, but Zira's still around To Love this little lad Until he learns to be a killer with a lust for being bad."

This all but says that while Zira and Scar were both around, they were "loving" (grooming) Kovu but with Scar dead, only Zira can do it now. Not really much to interpret here. They were sharing parenting dues of Kovu aka co-parenting. And seeing as it is in the final film, it kind of supercedes what Rooney (who has qualified both those statements with "If im remembering correctly", by the way) has said in both FB posts.

Jaxterhammer (talk) 08:21, 25 November 2020 (UTC)

What you added is conjecture, as that line can be interpreted in many ways. For instance, the “to love this little lad” line isn’t necessarily referring to Scar and Zira, but simply to Zira herself. All we know of Scar’s relationship with Kovu is that he “took him in” and that Kovu considers Scar to be a part of him. Anything else is fan speculation, especially in light of Rooney’s statement that they specifically removed Scar and Zira’s relationship from the final cut of the film. —Honeyfur 08:36, 25 November 2020 (UTC)

You're ommitting the full line. "Scar is gone BUT Zira is STILL around" implies that when they were both around, they were both caring for Kovu. It's literally her saying "Scar is gone but I'm still here to care for Kovu". That is not conjecture. Also, you are not factoring in that Rooney's statements were qualified and thus dubious at best. If there is another way to interpret what is being said here, by all means, I'm curious to hear it.

Also, there are no sources outright claiming Scar and Zira's relationship was cut from the film. What you have added all over the wiki is more conjecture than what I can directly source from the film. An obscured relationship is not a cut one and the film itself contradicts Zira's role as "just a follower".

Jaxterhammer (talk) 08:50, 25 November 2020 (UTC)

The full line doesn’t change what I said. Linguistically speaking, you can interpret the line to have either meaning. Not to mention, there are a plethora of other interpretations, such as Zira romanticizing Scar’s role in Kovu’s upbringing (which is in-line with her character), among many others. My point is, any of these interpretations are acceptable, but they are just that: interpretations. Which is why they should not be added to the wiki.

As for Darrell Rooney’s statement, it is not “added all over the wiki.” It is mentioned in the relevant trivia sections, as are all creator statements. Our canon policy does not count creator statements as canon, but rather as relevant trivia points. —Honeyfur 09:18, 25 November 2020 (UTC)

Zira is definitely talking about herself when she says "To love this little lad". She says, "But Zira's still around to love this little lad[Kovu]." No debate there. However, the presence of "Scar is gone, but Zira's still around" adds another layer to the sentence, which you cropped out and are not allowing to be added into the page for some reason. This is not an interpretation. Zira is saying: "Scar is gone, but Zira's still around to love this little lad" means "Your adoptive father [Scar] is deceased [gone], but I'm [Zira] still here to raise you [to love this little lad]." Doesn't really get much more clear that that.

And that's not my point. Again, Rooney made two statements and the wiki is favoring the one where he contradicts himself not that one where he doesn't do that. Wherever that information is added, we should be choosing a more recent and non-contradicting statement over an older one that DOES contradict itself. Instead, we seem to be choosing the one you prefer. It's in Scar, Zira, Kovu, and Nuka's pages. The Orphan comment is not mentioned anywhere (despite two people who worked on the film making mention of it independently), even in Kovu's trivia, last I looked. We shouldn't be picking and choosing which statements we're going to present and which we will not. Either they should all be presented or none of them should, lest people suspect bias.Jaxterhammer (talk) 09:56, 25 November 2020 (UTC)

And while we're on the subject of interpretations, Wikis should be nuetral. Creator comments should be presented as-is, instead of definitely claiming that they "confirm this" or "deny that". I notice you did this with Nuka ( "Flip Kobler, the co-writer of The Lion King II: Simba's Pride, has stated that Nuka is Scar's biological son" ) but not for Zira ("Director Darrell Rooney confirmed in a statement on Facebook") for whatever reason you're adamant about placing your interpretation of what Rooney said as law and even using that statement to discredit Flip's much more definitive one on Nuka.Jaxterhammer (talk) 10:05, 25 November 2020 (UTC)

It is fine to change the wording to be more accurate. We do not document every statement Rooney has made because they number in the hundreds; for this reason, we limit it to the important ones. At this point, I believe this conversation is becoming inappropriate for a talk page. Please contact an admin if you have questions about article technicalities. —Honeyfur 10:13, 25 November 2020 (UTC)

I feel like documentating a statement where he mentions Kovu as an orphan is worth documenting. Same for Vitani and Nuka, but it doesn't show up anywhere even though -- with two independent statements now -- we have reason to believe it was considered in production. If you don't mind, I'll be adding those in and then taking my leave.Jaxterhammer (talk) 10:18, 25 November 2020 (UTC)

Personally, I don’t think that trivia point is necessary; it comes off more as Rooney mixing up the definition of a specific word. However, we can see if other users think it is important to add. —Honeyfur 10:25, 25 November 2020 (UTC)

Maybe, but it's doubtful two people mixed it up. Flip mentioned it in his second comment. Also, there's at least one book claiming Scar and Zira were mates. Non-canon or not, it deserves mention in the Trivia. I understand you're the admin and have final say, but we shouldn't be playing pick and choose.10:38, 25 November 2020 (UTC)

Page Image

Here's my proposition for a new page image for her.