What's on your mind?
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The title itself is nothing new - I mean, Zira trains her son to become a teenage killer, on the mindset with murdering Simba and his daughter, and avenging a lion who wasn't even related to him, but instead, was a random jack who hung out with hyenas. She abused her eldest son and cast him aside when he just tried to make her proud, (though he is not entirely blameless since he only demands respect, and only tries to earn it by claiming the life of someone else) and only when he dies, she finally gives him some attention
(According to DeviantArt user, Madarao123, it takes Zira 1 minute to totally drop the heartbreak about the death of a relative, before suddenly booting Kovu out of the Pride, and then focusing on the attack against Simba)
She threatens to kill her daughter if she doesn't continue fighting, and refuses peace, so it's good to say that she is a terrible mother - I imagine that her cubs' father, (whoever and wherever he is) would be disappointed (unless he was just as malicious as Zira is).
However, I looked through the movie more and found out that she is worse than we all thought.
Ok, Ok, so according to the film documentary, Kovu was described as a "teenage killer" but judging by his mane, size, and age, he is a young adult in his teen ages, (which is normally around 17-19 years old) - For consistency sake, we'll go by human ages, since TLK is a metaphor for human behavior, and I'll go with 17 since he is naturally older than Kiara since he was conceived and born before Simba returned to fight Scar.
And if we take evidence off of the first film, it's likely that Simba, by the time he defeated Scar, was the equivalent of someone in their mid 20's, which is fitting with the film's tone of growing up and facing responsibilities, and finding your place in the world, something that generally happens in someone's mid 20's. For purposes of consistency, I will say that Simba is 25 by the time that Scar is killed, and 9 months pass with Kiara's birth
(The reason I am going off-topic here with Simba and Kovu's ages in human years is because this will tie in with my claim)
So Zira likely trained her son, who I'm guessing by the way he acts as a cub is 13, for years on end to kill Simba, and only after a couple of 4 years does she deem him ready, and at that moment, Simba is 30.
............. There is something very wrong about this.
Zira wanted her 17-year-old son to the murder of a 30-year-old man - Now, for the record, Simba himself may have some odds, for example, he grew up in the jungle for years on end eating nothing but bugs, and having no training, meaning his teeth would've become weaker from the lack of chewing anything truly meaty - However, Simba appears to be much more mature in the sequel, and all that time he spent back at Pride Rock, up until Kovu was a teen gave him enough time to feed himself more, making him stronger. Of course, he likely did not train with any of the lionesses, and even in TLG, he didn't do much fighting, leaving him unprepared. So Kovu would still have a chance.
But regardless of what the outcome would be, Zira sent a literal child out for a murder mission, with someone who has a good chance at killing him. At least when Nala ordered Simba to go back to fight Scar, she never implied downright killing him, just challenging him/getting his butt off the throne, and restoring peace, something which Simba had to make a decision. Zira, brutally trained and brainwashed her child, who would, by our standards still apply as a child, to be a hitman.......
There is a fine line between being a strict parent, to being an abusive parent. But there is a line between being an abusive parent, to being a very awful parent. But there is a fine line between that and being an awful excuse of a parent, to the point where we may not want to call this person a parent to the child just for how terrible they are, not just as parents, but as people, and how those qualities relate to each other [We have words for people like these].
Zira obviously didn't care about the obvious possibility that her son could die. And if that were the case, she'd be screwed either way.
Just Updated
DISCLAIMER: I have not actually seen the play Hamlet, nor have I read the book - I have just searched some footnotes of the story, so if I get anything wrong, welp... sorry xD.
This probably sounds really crazy, and you will have questions, which is why this will need some explaining.
Last year, I talked with my friend online about The Lion King II, and how it could've been improved by having Kovu related to Scar, and his relationship with Kiara being scrapped. Within the conversation, I suddenly 180'd it, and said that it would've been a cool idea if Sarabi was pregnant with Kovu during the events of the first film as a result of Scar forcing himself on her, and ordering her to keep her mouth shut {Yes, extremely disgusting, especially for a family film, I know =_=}.
As I have matured over the years, I realize that the concept could work - The Lion King is loosely inspired by Hamlet, only without Hamlet's death at the end, and the violent aspects. But still, there could be some aspects of the play that could easily incorporate into the film. The biggest I see is Gertrude, whom Sarabi is inspired by.
In the play, Gertrude, [Sarabi] is the wife of King Hamlet [Mufasa] and the mother of his son and heir [Simba]. After the King's death, and the Prince's exile, the King's little brother Claudius, [Scar] takes the throne. Here is where things get interesting.
Gertrude remarries Claudius out of her own will, making him Hamlet's step-father, and at the end of the story, she is poisoned, just like her husband, and dies.
This... could actually work in the film.
We know that Sarabi cares for the well-being of the Pride, and the Kingdom. I believe that after some years of grieving, she'd force herself to marry Scar, not out of love, but to preserve her reign as Queen so she can keep Mufasa's name alive through her reign alongside Mufasa's brother - Sarabi is not a stupid character by all means, so I imagine she'd marry Scar before the Pride Lands went down the pooper. And since she'd be the Queen, she'd have some authority over the hyenas, which means she could easily kick them out.
Unfortunately, with him being King by blood, {and an egotistical [beep]), Scar could've been a controlling and abusive husband to Sarabi, reducing her queen status, and only making her leader of the hunting party, with no authority over the hyenas.
Regretting her decision, Sarabi tries to make up for her mistakes by rebelling against Scar's tyranny and over-hunting, including that moment at the final battle. The lionesses continue to support her as their queen, regardless of her marriage to Scar. The hyenas would lack faith in their trust of Scar mainly due to him agreeing to marry the widow of the lion who sent them into exile to the Elephant Graveyard. This would add on to their lack of trust, up to Scar backstabbing them in the end.
The way I'd present it in the film is if Nala had informed Simba in the jungle that Sarabi has married Scar, making Scar his step-father. This would make the pain of realizing Scar murdered Simba's biological father, much worse.
This would actually make a better premise for the sequel - I feel like the relevance of Zira contradicted the first film NOT because she wasn't present, but because in the final battle, Scar says "Where is your hunting party" as if Sarabi was still the leader of the hunting party. Obviously this de-bunks the idea of Scar and Zira being mates, but if someone had held that amount of loyalty to Scar, would Scar not have just demoted Sarabi, and put Zira in charge of the lionesses?
If Sarabi was Scar's mate in the first film, but still retained her character, it would tie in with the sequel perfectly - Kovu could be born weeks later, and Simba would have to cope with both the struggles of fatherhood, which he was never taught to learn due to his own father's death, and with his little brother being the son of the lion who killed his father, as well as Sarabi's story of Kovu being a reminder of how she blindly married a lion who manipulated her and her family.
I think Disney didn't include this idea because they wanted to keep the moral standard of "no one can love a villain without being a villain themselves," (wait, they did this idea before, so why not again), but it would be more compelling that way. I'm a sucker for darker, more complex stories, that are still family appropriate when done right - The remake had a SUPER big missed opportunity, Scar forcing Sarabi to become his queen to use her as a scapegoat to his awful reign, and Nala rebelling against Scar, only to be exiled, and the exile itself going undisputed, and then her meeting Simba, and the rest.
(please don't use my drawing for anything or copy it or anything)
Simba was randomly chilling in his den when a person poked his head in.“Who are you?” Simba asked, alarmed.
“I’m the fandom.” he said smugly. “Now, here’s your son.” He threw a cub into the den and vanished.
“What?!” Simba exclaimed. “I don’t have a son!”
“Hi dad!” said the cub. “I’m Kopa, and I’m your eldest son.” He looked identical to his cub self except for a weird tail tuft on his head. “I got killed by Zira.”
“You did not.” Simba said.
“Yes I did!”
Another man poked his head in. “Hi, I’m Disney, and this is your second son.” He put a cub with a red mane and a tattoo in the den and disappeared.
“I’m Kion, and I’m the leader of the Lion Guard.”
“You’re not canon!” Kopa exclaimed.“
"I’m semi-canon!” Kion retorted. “You’re the one who’s a fanfiction!”
“I do not have sons!” Simba said loudly.
Another person came in: this time a woman. “I’m the Internet.” she announced. “This is Tanabi. He’s your son.”
“I thought Tanabi was old news!” said Kopa.
A cub dropped from the ceiling. “I’m Fluffy!”
“You’re me.” said Kopa.
“No, I’M Fluffy.” said Kiara, walking in. “And none of you are canon.”
Kion held up a paper officially announcing that he was canon furiously.
“Fine, you can stay, but I’m the only real Simba’s child!” she smirked. She seemed very off.
“IMPOSTOR!” screamed the real Kiara from the door. “YOU’RE THE LION GUARD KIARA, AREN’T YOU!”
Lion Guard Kiara have a mad cackle and ran out. Simba looked around at all these cubs, utterly lost.
“Don’t worry dad, I exist.” Kopa assured. He, Kion, and Kiara began to fight while Fluffy and Tanabi disappeared somewhere.
Simba stood there with his mouth open, shocked.
You've all seen the alternate ending to the original film - Scar defeats Simba and throws him off of Pride Rock, but is engulfed in flame himself, whilst Simba takes the throne.
For those who haven't watched it ~ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y14TwUGQ3xE
And let me say that I don't get it ~ I do not get why people would prefer this scene in the final film. I don't disrespect the opinions of people who prefer the scene in the final film - I just have a massive lack of understanding - I've analyzed this scene very well throughout the years I have been binge-watching it (and the amount of nightmares this scene has given me) and honestly, I still prefer the final ending -
Now, here's the thing - The scene was deleted due to being too horrific for a Disney film. Now such a reason alone is something I, and many others, think is hypocritical when you look at Disney's previous, and even eventual works, such as showing an octopod getting impaled an electrocuted, a dragon getting stabbed in the heart, a male lion falling 50 feet into a stampede and getting trampled to death and his corpse being shown onscreen for more than 30 seconds (note this, we both see this in Hand-Drawn, and Computer Generated Animation), a hunter getting hanged and the shadow of the body is seen, and many other dark scenes which I don't think should be mentioned on this wiki - You easily get the point.
The argument of it being too horrific would come across as hypocritical and the fact that the final death is just as dark would be a valid reason for people to question the deletion of this scene - At the same time, it is understandable as to why this scene was cut - Yes, both versions are horrific, but not in the exact same way - In this scene, we are likely subject to Scar laughing maniacally as the flames burn him alive, and he is oblivious to the excruciating pain that would befall him - Not to mention, from the looks of the storyboards {This is my assumption, since this scene was likely so dark that it never managed to get past the rough storyboards, I may be wrong} Scar is shown on-screen to be engulfed in flames completely before we see fire obscure the screen.
{1:23 Look closely near the center of the screen and you can see Scar, standing on Pride Rock, laughing whilst his entire body is swallowed by the fire before the scene cuts to fire obscuring the screen - It's my only assumption of what that scene was supposed to be since the black/white storyboarding in that scene made it hard to make out what was going on, but this is my guess as to what happened}
..... The Lion King is a family film - Yes, they can show dark elements mixed in with kid elements, they don't need to be Victor Hugo type of dark, but they also don't need to be totally cute and fluffy. However, there is a limit to how much of those you can go to. There's such a thing as crossing the line, and this scene legitimately burnt the line to a crisp. I say this because I am pretty sure that even a family film would have limits, those limits would not include seeing an animated lion burning alive on-screen. Sometimes lines need to be made so that you know your limits, and this scene crosses all of them by 8 miles.
But if anything, the scene could've just shown Scar laughing and then the flames appear above the screen, whilst his laughter fades out - It would've been a lot less nightmare-inducing - Unless that was the intention, but it was still too dark {again, it's not exactly confirmed that the scene shows Scar's skin being burnt, but those are the vibes I got}
But there are other reasons why I think this scene needed the boot -
When Simba & Scar fight, Simba is knocked dangerously close to the ledge, and Scar begins the cliche villain talking before sending himself in to off the hero - People have complained about how cliche this is, so I'll keep it brief. My problem isn't the fact that it's cliche, no, but compared to the final version, it has less meaning. In the final film, Scar was going to confess his crime to Simba, then throw him off Pride Rock - It's clear that Scar was doing this because he was cruel, and he wanted Simba to die with the thought that he was foolish enough to trust his uncle for a good amount of his life, as well as him sharing the same fate his father did - Dying with pain. And the thing was, it had a better chance at working because Simba was literally on the edge - Only the adrenaline boost, which was more so suspension of disbelief in Simba managed to save him, which in Simba's position, is understandable.
In this deleted scene, Scar simply puts Simba on his back, and THEN confesses, and no joke, it takes him 10 more seconds to try and off Simba, before Simba himself uses his tactic to send Scar packing over the edge, as a last-minute effort to save himself. You see my point here right? It doesn't have as much connection or meaning as the final film - And then there's the unanswered question - Why were Simba and Scar fighting if he never confessed until this point. Well this was the 1992 draft - I can only imagine that the events before were the same as the original, only the fight broke out with no confession - Again, it has less of an impact. In the final version, Simba comes in for the fight, knowing very well what the truth is and stands strong to Scar to confront him. The confession and the fight are paced better in the 1994 film.
Even the 1993 version of the alternate ending of the film has Scar confessing earlier and then the 1v1 occurs. Yes, in that version, Simba still gets down, but he still badmouths Scar, regardless of the fact that he could get himself killed, showing Simba's strengths in the final battle, which is a result of the confession being paced before the battle.
A little side review for the 1993 ending - It was alright - The only thing I found off was how Scar openly admitted to killing Mufasa - In front of both Simba, and 7 lionesses who at this point, would have no problem kicking his tail, whereas, in the final version, Simba forced the truth out of him after Scar told only Simba, with the intention to kill him off later.
{SIDE-NOTE: In case you don't believe me, or don't remember, the video of the 1993 alternate ending is once again available on YouTube after 6 years of being snuffed out by UMG -----> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TX9DQKHlugA
So the confession and actual battle in the 1992 deleted scene is time wrongly when you compare it with the timing of the finalized product - Which is superior to both the 1992 and 1993 workprint scenes.
Then there is the blatant Hamlet reference. It... is actually very cleverly written in - I do understand why that was cut because it would come across as less of a reference and more of a self-aware line, and for a character like Scar, I doubt breaking the 4th wall would be his "thing."
And now we get. to the biggest reason why people preach for this scene - Simba's defeat.
After Simba yeets Scar off the rock, Scar begs and pleads for help, and Simba obliges - Then Scar does a 180 on Simba and throws him off the cliff into the flames below. Whilst Scar is laughing like a hyena whilst being eaten by the flames, Simba lands on a burning tree by total dumb luck, and then runs away - Then the rains come in, Simba manages to resuscitate his mother, and the scene ends, but presumably, it ends the same way the final film does - Meanwhile the 1993 version shows Simba becoming King the night of that battle.
This was the main thing that not only made me say "Yes, this needed to be scrapped" but it made me appreciate the original's ending a lot more.
Notice how I've mentioned that this scene underplays Simba in terms of the battle, and his character arc following the confession, and right before the final battle with Scar. That is my biggest problem with this scene. It renders Simba's journey in the end utterly obsolete. Think of it - His father died, his uncle blamed him for the death, he ran away with this thought, directly after escaping being ripped apart by 3 thugs, then lived 7 years away from his family and friends, with the guilt of killing his own father, which is overshadowed by Hakuna Matata, then is confronted by Rafiki, Nala, and the ghost of his father, who all manage to get him off his lazy butt and do something about it - All of that leading up to Simba nearly getting killed, surviving by dumb luck, and then becoming King in the end. Not only is it an unsatisfactory ending, but me typing it down right now, I am slowly realizing how much it derails the film as a whole - Simba lost in his journey. He lost the game. He's gone from nowhere - His uncle screwed him over again in an attempt to kill him which was the thing that started the catalyst of the film in the first place! Only when Scar dies of sheer convenience is when this ends - Sheer convenience. Not to mention, we are also subject to 5 uncomfortable seconds of Simba screaming for help as he falls to his near doom. Simba's entire journey in the first film ends with his uncle, whom he believed for years to be a dear friend, and just found to be nothing more than a back-stabbing murderous excuse of a family member, taking control of him through manipulation, and winning in the end, but dying as the victor whilst Simba goes through a near-death experience.
Just to sum it up, it downplays Simba's character arc completely and deconstructs the elements of his character throughout the entire film - It does the opposite with Scar, but for too much - It makes him manipulative, cunning, but not care about what's going on around him, so it's natural for him to be laughing in his own victory, even if he could die in it - But he's still rewarded for his crime - Not physically or verbally awarded in the film, but by the script, since apparently he does win, but dies in the end - No one confronts him or hands it to him, he just wins - And it ties in perfectly with Simba's downplaying.
The way the original film ended was done way better. Simba's fears do take over when he initially returns to the Pride Lands, and he nearly loses, but Scar, following his cruel nature, admits his crimes when the chances of Simba dying are still high, with or without him confessing - But for Simba, this doesn't make the pain go away, it just renders all of his guilt of Mufasa's death totally useless in the end so he still fights back and doesn't stop, and it's this that causes the truth of Mufasa's death to leak out, and the fight to break out - Simba then confronts Scar again, but refuses to kill, him because he understands he is better than Scar, and also attempts to give Scar the same fate that Simba got as a cub, knowing him to be his father's son and rise above what Scar thought of him as - Gullible. You could say that Simba was gullible when Scar threw ashes in his eyes, but I think in his mind, Scar would either face this or death, and preferred for Scar to run off, but nevertheless, the fight starts, and Simba wins! Scar is defeated and he meets the hyenas, and is pleased to see them, but soon realizes he screwed up, and at this moment, he breaths his last breath as the hyenas finish him - His lies and manipulation catch up to him, to where both Simba and the hyenas turn on him, which indirectly or not, leads to his undoing.
Everything the final version of the original film does is better written than the alternate ending - Sure, Disney didn't want to scare the young viewers so they cut it out for reasonable reasons, but older viewers may not care about that and want it in, and I've tried imagining this ending in the final cut of the film, but it's always unfitting and just derails the film, if not, Simba and Scar themselves.
And to be honest, I still like the alternate ending, I like the dark tone - I just don't like the idea of that scene remaining in the original film. And if you prefer this scene being in the film over the final version of Scar's death, well I can't change your opinion, but in my opinion, the final ending is better.
Please read this carefully and it will change your life forever once you read it!
Lion Guard is pretty okay other than the fact that they completely demolished some characters.... like since when was Simba a self-righteous know-it-all who always went "OOOH IMA KING" and sat there waiting for Bunga to freaking fart of Kiara?!
Green Rhino
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So.. in The Lion Guard, it's said that Nala's father fell from a tree and was saved by the Lion Guard of his day. And I was like "cool, we see Nala's dad for once, and more info about the past Lion Guards before Kion." And of course, since Nala's father was revealed after 20 years, that was pretty much everything we focused on, and understandably so. But there was a big picture everyone, including myself missed.
I didn't see it initially, but then a couple years into the show, mid Season 2, I believe, it dawned upon me, and you could say I had an epiphany, or there was a slug in my breakfast, but as soon as the thought came to my head, the realization hit me like a bullet train.
"THIS MAKES WAY TOO MUCH SENSE!!!"
Like, like, think about it, really think about it. So of course, the Lion King's second-born is the leader of the Lion Guard. That's correct. So the leader of the Lion Guard that saved Nala Sr. (I'm calling him that since what else do I name him xD) must've been directly related to the Lion King or Queen directly.
So already we have extra evidence for another lion, who is related to Mufasa and Scar.
And Nala Sr. was a cub at this time - Call me crazy, but wouldn't that mean that Mufasa, Scar, Sarabi, and Sarafina would be cubs too, since it's barely implied that their age difference is severely drastic (Scar is noted to be younger than Mufasa, but still, again, not drastically younger, so Nala Sr. could be older or younger than Sarafina, but not in a weird way).
And Scar lead the Lion Guard when he was around the same age as Kion in the pilot (I know that the show portrays Scar as a teen/young adult when he refers himself to "not much older than Kion" or "About Kion's age," but I like to believe he lead the Lion Guard as a cub, and the corruption happened years later). Well.. this could only mean this Lion Guard, preceded Scar's Guard, including the lion who lead it.
And once again, the second-born cub of the monarchy is the leader of the Guard, traditionally. Meaning that Mufasa and Scar had a paternal or maternal uncle who lead the Lion Guard, and after some time, Scar took his uncle's place as leader of the Guard.
This would make the unknown lion the great-uncle to Simba, and the great-great uncle to Kiara and Kion.
And for those who like to consider the book version of Scar's parents (I don't normally want to, but sometimes I will out of sheer desire) then it means Ahadi, or Uru, had a little brother.
Now, I am very sure this choice was unintentional, and Disney never intended to build upon the Lion King world, in this manner, given they never focus on him, but they still did. That, or they knew, but they decided not to focus on him because he would be irrelevant to the story, which is understandable when you think about it; Nevertheless, it goes to show how little details of a show, intentional or not, can change your view of the show overall.
Disney ever makes a prequel film or series featuring Mufasa and Scar's childhood, then we definitely should see the identify of Mufasa and Scar's uncle.
I also want to know how long it took for the pridelands to heal.
So everyone knows about the TV show The Lion Guard, about Kion and his friends. You also know about Six New Adventures, about Kopa and HIS friends.
I was wondering, what do you guys think of these two media? TLG is semi-canon and SNA is fanon, but what do you think? Do you like it?
My opinion is that TLG is ok, except for maybe a few weird things like major personality changes and others. I haven't read SNA but Kopa never existed so I think it's fanon.
Would Kopa, Kion, and all the others in their two media be considered canon or not?
Wondering what you all think.
Hello everyone,
I'm going to make an audio-book of my fanfiction: Whatever It Takes. If you're interested in having a role in it, join the Discord server I have for it.
Share this with everyone who you think might be interested. I need a lot of people for this.
Fanfiction link: https://www.wattpad.com/story/210816620-whatever-it-takes-a-lion-guard-fanfiction
Discord link: https://discord.gg/VCaaUPq
I need more people from my Fandom it's about Everything lion king and Everything lion king and lion guard The books and the games
Petition for a fourth season of Lion Guard:
Please sign
I always thought that the debate of Nala's father was hilariously monstrous, (not in a bad way, but in a way that is almost funny) because of the multiple options, the many fan-fics and theories, and even people, Roger Allers and Rob Minkoff themselves making jokes and/or referenes. about Simba and Nala being in an incestuous relationship. Now, I'm not going to go off on a tangent here, so let me cut quick to the chase.
There is one question no one else but me, has asked, and you are going to be shocked when you realize that this was not at all touched upon.
Who is Sahasi and Surak's father? This is something I realized 5 months after the show ended, is that before Janna died, we don't see a King who ruled by her side. We see Surak refer her to as "Mother," but never reference his father at. All. No King of the Tree of Life. As a result, we don't know who Sahasi and Surak's father, (who in this case would be Rani and Baliyo's paternal grandfather) is.
I'm guessing that the real-world answer is that they didn't think of him during production of Season 3, and would hope that that no one would realize his absence, or care at all if they did, (Disney, we fell for that once, don't expect us to fall for it xD). But the revelation of Rani's grandfather is so interesting, that it opens the door for many in-story head cannons.
Now, I guess there is the classic Disney answer of "He's dead" since Disney likes killing off parents, (This dated back to years ago when Walt Disney himself lost his mother, and felt so bad about it, that he didn't show any mothers in film(also, this makes Season 3 a bit darker considering that he presumably died before S3)).
I'm going to stick by that theory, because it makes soo much more sense. But with that, I'm just wondering how and when he died.
I think that he just died from old age, since he and Janna were old and near the end of their time, but the King left a couple of months before Janna did. Now, I think he would've been a consort instead of a King, since no mentions of a deceased ruler before Janna's death is held, so Janna, having royal blood, had more authority.
Now, I think he died sometime after Season 2, but before Season 3, basically during the months Kion is battling Scar, as we're shown in the opening song of Season 3. Considering Kion grows into a young adolescent, I'm guessing that's a gap of 7 months, making him 1-2 years old. So Janna's mate would've died within those 2 months. The reason I think he died before the Lion Guard's journey to the Tree of Life is because we don't see Rani holding any emotional stress over the death. I think it took her some time to come to terms with loosing her grandfather, which could've been during the Lion Guard's journey.
It also gives Kion and Rani's marriage a whole new meaning, since Kion would've been filling the paw prints of the old King that died, as well as securing the position for good.
Again, we're never told about this character, so we can't really confirm who he is and what happened to him, and the fact that this character gets NO references, unlike Nala's father who is referenced in the TV show, just makes it harder to know.
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